Star Wars : The Old Republic : PvP Lacks Depth(?) [Updated]

Oct 24,2011 - by BetaCake 238

According to a poll from the SWTOR Beta forums, testers believe that PvP lacks depth at the moment and it should be improved.

What do you think?

BetaCake
Rumors have it that Cpt. BetaCake was once a mere mortal. In human years he would be 28 years old. Nowadays, he finds peace in sharing gaming news and leaks.

http://twitter.com/Magmaros Magmaros

uh sorry, but 37 people isn’t a large enough base to use for something like this
- Anonymous
  
  This was sent to us yesterday, so the poll is from Saturday i guess.
  
  I e-mailed the tester who sent it for an updated image if possible.
  - http://twitter.com/Magmaros Magmaros
    
    Its not the timing that we’re debating, its the number of responses, you can’t judge a game off 37 responders to a poll
    - Anonymous
      
      We’re both saying the same thing.
      
      I’m not debating the timing either, but this is a 2 days old screenshot of the poll, by now there should be way more people who voted on it.
      - http://twitter.com/Magmaros Magmaros
        
        no doubt mr betacake, I’m just sayin that with as few votes as it has had, it shouldn’t really have been posted as news until you had an up to date screenshot, as it is, there was really no point to post it up
      - Thrasymicus
        
        I think another important variable is how many of the voters are at max level and how many are judging the games pvp based on a level 10 toon?
      - http://twitter.com/elsteevo29 Steve C.
        
        It’s a sample of a larger population. Most samples are indeed accurate within a few % points.
      - Mcleised
        
        I disagree, that is only true with a random choice or people…. For all we know, the same group of people voted who represent a SMALL populous of like minded individuals
      - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SHYZFT5FXEHOHVBXEWMFTWIXJU Tyklon
        
        But that shouldn’t make a difference. Despite what level you are, PvP should still be fun. Personally, I’m looking too far ahead to enjoy modern PvP in MMOs (2D on a monitor, with a mouse and keyboard. Pointing and clicking doesn’t exactly thrill me), but for those who find it to be fun with today’s tech, it should be for all players.
      - Anonymous
        
        I think you misunderstood the original point of the poll. They were asking if PvP lacked “depth” NOT “fun”.
        
        You can have PvP that is fun, like Team Fortress 2, but still be simple. While you could have a ridiculously in-depth game like Eve Online, and have moments of sheer confusion and “no fun”.
        
        When it comes to MMO’s, a game that has many levels, with dozens of progressive skills, then level is a factor to be considered. Game Design for an MMO is all about gradual increase in depth and complexity, and the progression is a method to slowly pace the players to familiarity, etc…
        
        You would never see a Designer allow players to start out with every single skill / talent point at Level 1, that’s terrible progression/pacing design.
        
        So in that sense. It does matter what level the players are, because the complexity and “depth” of the game will naturally increase as the players approach max level, due to the increased availability of unique and different skill-sets.
        
        As for whether SWTOR lacks PvP in depth, honestly, I point back to WoW. When I PvP’d at lvl 15 it was fun but it doesn’t really go beyond complexity in terms of comparing it to WoW. It might be a little more complicated in the sense that you have no auto-attack, but overall, it is pretty similar.
        
        However, I can see it easily gaining the same type of complexity and depth that WoW’s PvP Arena might have, especially due to the focus on team-battles rather then 2v2, 1v1, etc…
        
        But don’t expect something like Age of Conan where player has control over every movement, and positioning is do or die.
      - Anonymous
        
        there is quite simply no open world pvp at all, your questing areas don’t get mixed and i leveled to max level last build with only seeing one republic player. Also end game open world pvp has not been launched yet. So it looks the only way to experience pvp is in warzone which due to the lack of depth in abilities and possible strategies and not to mentiond auto face in pvp was activated last build…turns into a game of pokemon stand still and cast skills.
      - bwaaaaaaa
        
        that will be 100% exactly what it is like at release. there will be NO MORE players on ANY server than there are right now. EVER
      - Anonymous
        
        My overall point was that since they haven’t seemed to designed quests to mix two factions in one point area via overlapping quests world pvp seems bare and ofc obviously there are low numbers of players, but if you compare the huge ammount of players i see on tattoine that are of my faction (cause empire and empire quest in the same areas, obviously.) and you look at how many republic and empire there are in one point at the same time you see a huge design flaw.
        
        GJ misintepreting my point and issue.
        /golf clap.
- Anonymous
  
  BC just updated it (11/24). It is now a 316:63.
  
  So the first sampling of 37, seems to match the later results.
  - Hemo
    
    No, its still only a sample of 70 players.
    - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_SHYZFT5FXEHOHVBXEWMFTWIXJU Tyklon
      
      If it was 1,000:1, that wouldn’t make it only a sample of 1 player. Unless you’re pulling a 70 out of midair, unrelated, I think you’re misunderstanding how a landslide poll result works.. It’s currently a sample of 379, apparently.
  - Dregs
    
    You are looking at a completely different poll question that was added.
http://twitter.com/newtypeSaint Svayam Phelan

“guys I don’t think this fetus has enough hair”
- Anonymous
  
  That ‘fetus’ is in its 3rd trimester (2 months from retail release).
- Fake
  
  Agree completely.
  
  He is comparing endgame pvp after it has been perfected over 8 years (pvp trinkets, ice bloc. These were not in vanilla)
  
  To something people have not begun to play with. It’s easy to write a paragraph that depicts “epic back and forth pvp” when we have all learned the wow abilities and respective counters.
  
  While the poll may or may not be worth something, the original post certainly is just garbage
  - bwaaaaaaa
    
    Agreed, but this game was designed to be simple and will remain simple. They’re catering to a wide ability range with this game.
Dregs

OP wrote so much and yet said so little.

What he actually stated about SWTOR’s combat:

- Silence is kinda broken.
- Needs moar depth.
- Konphess
  
  What the OP said is that PvP is balanced. And they don’t like balanced. I have seen this post many times before over the past 13 years. The “Depth” they are looking for is a lack of counters to them and an increase of counters to us. Basically this Them = Us is bad, and Them > Us is “Depth”.
  
  Close combat classes have skills to draw range into close combat, and Range have skills to open that range again. So time after time the melee scream remove the fear, knockback, or sleep. Allow us to Charge in combat, Silence ALL Range abilities, and pushback All Range casting.
  
  I joined WoW less than a year after release and on my first day I heard from three different melee players how they Hated fear. Well thats how Range players feel when they suffer pushback after pushback on a 3 second cast time.
  
  There is math for balance, mathematical equations, server PvP combat data to prove combat balance. But every time balance is achived to some extent a player base raises in up roar. Make us over powered, crowded control is to stressfull us, RPG balance doesn’t recreate the imbalance we enjoy from console shooters. We want the “Depth” we enjoy on consoles.
Ahtf184

Like Magmaros said. That pool got reposted abit to quick. would be more intressting if the numbers where the same after 200 posts.
- http://twitter.com/Magmaros Magmaros
  
  hell, more like 2000 posts
  - Nikon23
    
    German localisation beta had only 100-200 tester, so in my opinion this poll is very relevant
    - Mrcabbages
      
      Nobody is questioning its relevancy, they’re questioning its accuracy, which is entirely acceptable to question, given that this poll only reflects 37 people.
      Taking a sample size of 37 from a pool of 200 isn’t the same thing as taking 370 from a pool of 2000. Practically speaking, they’re the same fraction of testers, but statistically speaking, it’s more significant coming from 370 than from 37.
      
      The point is, BC jumped the gun a bit on this one.
      - Sopello_przecudny
        
        It might have been posted in a pvp-specialised sub-forum thread, where mostly hardcore pvpers dwell -> harsher points of view
      - Mrcabbages
        
        Even if that were the case, the accuracy could, and SHOULD, for that matter, still be called into question.
      - Deebo
        
        And this is it in a nutshell. Hardcore PvPers wont like this game. Its not Darkfall or DAoC or Shadowbane. Its made for PvE first / PvP 2nd.
        
        If they desinged the game for a niche crowd like hardcore PvPers or hardcore raiders, it would die a month or two out lol.
      - Brandon Comer
        
        they aren’t comparing it to those games, they compared it to WoW… and found it lacking.
    - Hemo
      
      Looks like english to me. How can you tell it is german?
Tbsdisaster83

Lol. 37 people? TOR is not wow, so skills are different, but it is not just run up and swing. First try all classes at 50, then learn a playstyle to own with.
Sopuli

Funny thing is, even WoW did not have “good” PvP for long time. It took blizz many many years to tweak pvp. And in mmo imo PVE is more important to get polished before PVP
- Veritas
  
  They are both equally important. If they are not both polished over the next month and a half BW will have problems.
- Cptrossco
  
  they have to polish both PvE and PvP at the same time otherwise one will be complette only to find it does not work in the other and adjustments (nerfs and buffs) will have to be made, and if that were to happen after launch people will complain. adjust a skill in pvp effects your pve and vice versa
Prince of Persia

WoW has depth in it’s PvP? Since when? From my beta experience, PvP is just fine. Sure, it needs some tweaking, but the basis is all there. It’s just a matter of patching thing before and after launch.
- Veritas
  
  Anyone who’s actually been an active participant in rbgs and arena would know WoW has more depth in that area. From the beta footage I’ve seen you pretty much spam your main ability 1,1,1,1,1,1 and wait until your next ability pops up. That’s pretty terrible in design. This guy has a point. Every class should have a counter ability with proper cooldowns, gcds, silence lock outs, ccs, etc. The first person to screw up and not use their brain in controlling the pvp situation should lose.
  - MrGrimord
    
    Because every footage you have seen is level 14 pvp and not 50.
    - Anonymous
      
      So where are the videos and the post showing the other side — where PVP is amazing and in depth?
  - BHPower
    
    Ha! Cause every class has that in WoW. Bollocks! Most of the people I watch playing PVP in SWTOR make me want to cry. I don’t know if it’s because they are at a show, or because we are watching ridiculously low level characters, but it damn sure isn’t 1,1,1,1 etc. There are tons of abilities to use, I just rarely see people using them.
  - Kain
    
    WoW pvp is not now nor has it ever been balanced in the games history. every patch fixing/breaking and overpowering entire classes causing huge spikes in class involvement in arena. just pretend that entire classes don’t drop off the map in one patch. that’s bad design.
    
    talking about spamming 1,1,1,1 in PvP by players of questionable skill in a beta that are possibly lvl 12s raised to 50 for PvP (that’s how PvP works in swtor).
    
    also need I remind ppl that wow had no battle grounds on release, no arena till the first expansion. so lets keep this in check and be fair and realistic, this is beta.
Wobbafett

I wouldn’t call the combat in WoW in-depth either.

The OP even pointed this out by showing how scripted WoW fights are since you know going into the fight what the opposite class is going to use and what you need to use against it. After doing countless years of PvP it soon became nothing more than a glorified game of Checkers where you use the moves, they use theirs and the first person to do something “out of the box” (or person with the rock / paper / scissors advantage) wins.
- Takionbrst
  
  Go watch Neilyo or Akrios videos and get back to me.
  - Ewfse
    
    Rofl, they are doing exactly the thing the guy above you mentioned. They know how the fights are scripted and what move is best against what, allowing them to anticipate their opponents movements and acting accordingly.
    - Takionbrst
      
      I guess you haven’t watched the videos then. That’s what everyone thought about neilyo– that the guy just knew the scripts to a t and could execute flawlessly. Then Akrios comes along and stomps all over his face. Then they switch specs– Akrios stomps him again. So clearly there isn’t a single “script”– if you were a decent pvper you’d know that.
    - Garlite
      
      actually thats what boxers do too, anticipating what could happen if they would do this and etc. your analogy is crap at best, thats the essence in combat, to do the best thing you could possibly do in a given situation and to exploit the situation in your favor. what you just did in your post was to prove that wow pvp combat is perfection.
- Metalhead92787
  
  I agree, what some people call pvp depth in wow I call pvp scripted.
  
  Every single ability has a counter and should you break the script and try a different ability you will most likely wasted a CD or something and you will die. So pvp is based basically knowing all the cool downs of each class you face and wait for them to do their thing so then you can respond with your thing so they can counter and you can counter etc etc until someone scews up.
- Brandon Comer
  
  your wrong
Nah

WoW still doesn’t have good PvP
- Alan G
  
  Are you of that screaming butt hurt minority that want XP/item loss upon PvP death and free for all ganking everywhere?
  Poor you :’( no developers want to spend money on you so you waste all your time hating on forums.
  - blahblahbeta
    
    WoW PVP isn’t great. Get over it.
Asd

Star Wars: The Old Republic is not a PVP centric game, this is not Warhammer Online, this is not Dark Age of Camelot.

Sorry, anyone who has been following the game can’t complain about PVP with a straight face,
- Veritas
  
  If it doesn’t have end game “polished” pvp. The game will flop.
- Takionbrst
  
  Thanks for the constructive insights
  
  You’re incredibly shallow minded if you think that a game without a pvp community to speak of will be healthy (in the sense of a major mmo). I’m fine that they’ve given you the story, or voiceovers, or whatever other thing it is that gets you going, but don’t try and take an aspect of the game others find enjoyable and marginalize it.
  - brigade
    
    Warhammer online marginalized pve and focused on pvp……look what happened….that games about dead. There are more folks that play darkage of camalot then there are that play warhammer. That game was 100% about the pvp and it died hard.
    
    They need to balance both out or neather one is gonna be good
    - Takionbrst
      
      I agree with this entirely– I should state that during 95% of my mmo career I’ve raided on the bleeding edge as well as pvp. It’s the only way to hone your skill/understanding of the mechanics. The key is balance and harmony at endgame.
- Anonymous
  
  Just because it is not a PvP Game, doesn’t mean that PvP is irrelevant.
  
  Pve games in 2011 do need to have some PvP appeal to capture and retail the market — which is why you see PvE games including more than just a /pvp element.
http://twitter.com/StevenCasta Casta

People need to understand that things like PvP are hard to get right in their first iterations, especially without breaking PvE balance.

Lets face it. Bioware hardly has any experience in multiplayer games let alone a freaking MMO ,so give them time to familiarise themselves with the balancing process and then when they feel more confident they’ll start making bolder balancing choices.

It took WoW an entire expansion to even START getting PvP balance right (put down the rose-tinted glasses Vanilla veterans before you start your flaming this point) and they are still trying to get it just right.

Remember, it’s easy to look at balance from a player’s perspective without looking at the amount of other factors that dev’s have to consider. What might balance one aspect may over/underpower another. When you’re looking at it from the formula/calculation side you realise how much flinging complex formulas at other complex formulas can yield unexpected results.

Also, you want to be careful when trying to interpret data from user polls on official forums. More often it’s a case of the vocal minority voting in the poll due to them being angry over unrealistic expectations and looking to vent on the forums while the one’s enjoying it are actually too busy in game to care about the forums. There would be a lot of players coming over from already well established MMO’s (I.e. WoW) complaining about the game not meeting their over-zealous expectations carried over from the aforementioned MMO’s.

TL;DR – Let them get the core design right before you start complaining about the lack of tweaking.
- Veritas
  
  The only issue is that SWTOR doesn’t have the luxury that WoW had during that time in the MMO market. They’re entering a saturated market. SWTOR will either grab you or not within a month. If not… expect people to just play BF3, Diablo III, WoW:MoP, etc.
  - Anonymous
    
    Agreed.
    
    The market has changed since 2004.
    
    The market no longer gives, nor must give, a game ‘time’ to get things right after launch.
    
    Gamers are not very forgiving nor tolerant. There are too many other options out there to ‘wait for them to fix it’.
    - Phillies3nfive
      
      I disagree with this. I think people will give this game a much longer chance than any other mmo. People love Star Wars and they love Bioware. People have been waiting for this game for so long that if everything is not perfect at the beginning people will wait for them to fix it. This has a lot of other features in it to keep people happy until things get righted. Plus where else are they gonna go? Back to WoW? Doubt it. Bioware has time to balance and make pvp more in depth even after launch.
      - http://www.facebook.com/people/Dennis-Hansen/1220600120 Dennis Hansen
        
        Agree.. If people wanna play SWTOR just cause they want a new WoW they will be disapointed the first day. Im happy that Bioware is staying true to what they do best. And focus on that.
        
        Sure PVP needs to be there. At launch? I honestly dont care. There is so much “Bioware stuff” in the game already that i wanna try out before i even decide what class i wanna play at max level.
      - Anonymous
        
        There isn’t as much bioware stuff in the game as you would imagine you, have about 4 class quests per world after origin and if you play mmo’s you realise that much and after your first time playing, all world quest dialogue are identical. For a game at this day and age tor is lacking in almost every aspect, this would be acceptable 7 years ago now its lazy….
- Anonymous
  
  After dozens of hours of warzones, I’m still looking forward to more. The “depth” in TOR comes from team dynamics and strategy, not countering your opponents in 1v1. It’s all about objectives, and 1v1s are literally 100% meaningless currently.
  
  There are flaws in the system, most notably that you should actually try to die in several situations, but they’ve already posted that they’re working on fixing that for launch.
- Catalin
  
  pve balance is equal with zero, at best. who gives a crap if the rogue in your party does 15% more damage then the mage ? answer: only idiots who think that harassing some scripted monster over and over is serious business. its widely known and accepted that stupid people make about 85% of population, look what happened in US – they voted a monkey for president and now they dont get why they are going down.
  
  I am rofling irl when I hear about pve balance from obvious reasons.
  
  P.S. btw, the op is right, pvp is complete garbage in swtor. been there, done it.
  - http://www.facebook.com/cj.schwab CJ Schwab
    
    Judging by your grammar you must not be a native speaker of English. Although I am not sure where you are from if you think 85% of people are stupid. Statistically stupid should occupy the lower end of a bell curve. In a normal distribution that would be less than 85% of a population, probably more like 25% of people have IQ scores below 80 which is generally accepted as low.
    
    Also President Obama is quite intelligent and well educated whether you approve of his job performance in face of the global financial crisis or not.
  - http://twitter.com/StevenCasta Casta
    
    Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
    
    Stating that your opinions are fact and that everyone else’s are wrong make you the asshole.
Postal

The open world PVP zone isn’t even in yet. That’ll add a great deal of depth and replayability. To talk about PvP depth of a game when it’s the feature isn’t even fully implemented yet is a bit strange.

One of the foremost Warcraft, Warhammer, Rift etc. PvP experts, Taugrim, was extremely impressed with SWTOR’s PvP, and that’s enough of a recommendation for me, since I regard him as one of the trustworthy voices of the MMO PVP community at large.
- Sopello_przecudny
  
  It’s kinda strange that open world pvp lake isn’t even implemented in beta 2 moths before release… I expect it to be in eventually for lauch but very buggy, it’ll be one of the main rage reasons after lauch and will be adressed in first patches i think
  - Anonymous
    
    I agree that the ‘late’ implementation of Open World Pvp is a bad sign.
    
    I could be mistaken, but normally such tardiness is a sign of a weaker, rather than stronger, system.
- Burzaa Neph
  
  You think, an open world pvp zone is going to add depth? it has nothing related to what the OP mentioned. By depth he means the use of CDs to counter others. Which WoW has a lot of. Only CDs I used in TOR beta is to trinket and interrupt. Not much depth there. So I don’t see how a zone is going to add depth to abilities, lol…
Rainu

It would also be interesting to know that levels the people who answered were. If they only have low(er) level characters then it’s quite likely that they want more depth since they’ll only have some of their abilities available.
Truthomatic3000

that silence interrupts a spell and doesn’t silence someone for an extended time doesn’t mean its broken. and i can tell you that interrupting a spell, even if its just one, can be far from being useless. interrupt that one big heal from the guy you’re trying to kill, but who keeps regenerating and healing. get him to 30%, interrupt it, and hit him with the big attack you hopefully saved up.

pvp lacking and silence being “broken” are two different things. i think too that pvp is lacking, but mainly because the open pvp areas aren’t done and there’s only 3 warfronts.

i’ve enjoyed warhammer pvp ALOT more than wow PvP, and im my opinion there’s alot more right than wrong, compared to wow. even tanking and going full defensive has a purpose in battles, which adds a whole new role to PvP which wow does NOT have.
- Takionbrst
  
  The problem lies in that, as near as I can tell, they haven’t given Mythic free reign with pvp. So you won’t be getting WAR pvp. Also, lockout is essential to a silence in pvp– the scenario you’re describing only works if you don’t get peeled.
  
  I feel frustrated because, at least if the general forums are any indication, if the majority of the fanbase had their way there would be no pvp at all. I understand that a lot of people will play this game for the “story”– that’s fine, but do you have to shit on the aspect of the game I enjoy? Must we completely prioritize things like character generator options over endgame content like pvp?
  - Truthomatic3000
    
    well i wouldn’t know about how much reign they have, but i’ve noticed one thing. some abilities are exactly the same as in warhammer, even with the exact same cooldown. and im not just referring to the bodyguard/protect ability that tanks get. the sprints, the cc-breakers, the snares, and probably a few other skills i didn’t compare.
    
    also that open pvp (rvr from wahammer) is actually in, in some sort of “lake-ish” way, is really an extremely strong reminder of warhammer online. if they take that and add a twist and more complexity, like objective driven lakes, it could become something good.
    
    let’s hope the best, i guess. but i personally am not having huge hopes for pvp to be deep enough to become my main focus over a longer time. guess it all depends on how open pvp is implemented. warfronts are fun but they’re like team fortress or battlefield matches: instanced matches, disconnected from the world, not influencing it directly. i really love large numbers and open pvp, but it must be done REALLY well to discourage zerging, and boost the underdog somehow. i would love to see npcs support the outnumbered side. never seen that in an mmorpg.
    - Takionbrst
      
      Yep, pretty much spot on.
    - Derp
      
      Yup the PvP mechanics/abilities are 99% ripped straight from Warhammer. I’m actually surprised BW gave so much leeway to the ex-Mythic guys on the team to make the classes so similar to WAR considering it bombed, but I guess you go with what you know. After all, the actual combat wasn’t the problem with WAR except for the slight input lag (which ToR seems to have inherited according to some tester). I’m also surprised more people aren’t talking about this but then again nobody played WAR after the first month.
      - dontbanmebro
        
        I’ve played both WAR and I’m currently in beta. The PVP experience is waaay more fleshed out in the Beta then it ever was in the time I spent in WAR. Nothing is really THAT over powered and balance is pretty spot on. Their is currently no types of stun lock -> death and it’s more of a slower pace. Plenty of oppertunity to have great battles. The fact the OP says the game lacks depth for counters I can’t really see. I’ve played SW immortal to 50 and I had plenty of CD’s to pop during a fight.
        
        Most class’s have punts/stuns, closers, a few have slows or roots but it never really feels like it’s gam breaking. I’m guessing he wasn’t high enough of a level to have a full spectrum of abilities.
        
        The only area I feel that PVP is lacking is although the 3 warfronts are fun and have a great dynamic for the most part going on is, well, it’s only 3 warfronts. The world PVP is a mixed bag to me. The fact that I seen 2-3 republics on the nar shadaa promenade, a few on tatooine and alderaan was a little discouraging ( I’m on a PVP server ) but I think it’s to limit the greifing early on. It’s also hard to determine world PVP at the moment due to the fact it’s a beta. We’ve got no indication how “full” our server actually is. Perhaps it’s only half or 1/4 of what they plan on having as a live server.
Nikon23

I think the question is very well placed in this poll. “Is being different worth being bad?”.

That also comes to my mind when i think about graphic, dungeonfinder, companions you simply can’t use (for example as Jedi Consular you can’t use your Ranged DPS companion cause he’s taking too much dmg, you always have to use your tank), lack of gestures and facial expressions although you are supposed to “feel the world” and they praise this story-driven thing and many many other things. It’s really making me sad how bad this game will be at beginning and now people will say “then just wait 6 months until you start” but that’s not the answer. Why can’t someone like the Poll-creator try to make the game better without getting flamed?

So i just say i fully agree with the Poll-creator and there are lots of unfinished parts and also parts that are not fully thought-out like the companion stuff i wrote above and i think they made many wrong game design decisions, but still let’s just try to improve what bothers us most and not what you feel is “general” and whats not.
- Veritas
  
  The game doesn’t have the luxury for “just wait in 6 months it will be great.” It will be the nail in their coffin. It must be addressed before launch.
  - Sopello_przecudny
    
    they can spam patches in the first month after release, but thats it, first month is most important
    - Phillies3nfive
      
      people will give this game a MUCH longer chance. It is Star Wars. It is Bioware. People have too much invested time waiting for this game. First month is least important because most people will be leveling their characters. Month 2, 3, and 4 are much more important imo.
      - Sopello-przecudny
        
        I’m talking about 1st free month you get with the game; what people see ingame is what makes them sub for more months or not, that’s why I think it’s important. SW and bioware fans, myself included, will stay for longer, which will be enough to sustain the game, but there’s also large Wow-originated mmo crowd.
http://www.facebook.com/NeverxKnowsxBest Matthias Bakker

he expects a game in beta to match the content of a game thats been out for several years…

maybe whats wrong here is the MMO community demanding instant gratification. you will get your pvp depth… just wait a few patches. sheesh
- Anonymous
  
  So it is the customers’ fault for expecting current standards?
  
  It is the nature of the market. People do not expect to see 2004 tech, in 2011. They expect to see 2011 tech in 2011.
  
  If a game cannot launch and be competative out of the gate with other 2011 games, then it should not launch at all.
  
  It is 2011. The tech is more advanced. There is far more marketing data and experience out there. The days of launching a Bug filled and unstable game, and expecting customers to wait around for a month or two are gone.
  - The_Duck
    
    THIS!
    
    People, this is basically 2012! Not 2004.
    They’ve been working on this game for 3+ years. My expectation is that they will have
    standard 2012 MMO gameplay and features.
    
    I certainly don’t expect 2004 gameplay and features.
    I also don’t care how long it took an OLD MMO to implement XYZ since we are not in
    2012 and our expectations are as such.
  - GeezerGamer
    
    But comparing SWTOR vanilla to WOW plus 3 expansions plus numerous patches is a flawed comparison. That’s like comparing a new 2012 model car right off the showroom floor to a 2004 car that’s had the ‘Pimp My Ride’ treatment. Comparing SWTOR to Rift or DCUO or other ‘new’ 2011 games is more appropriate. I’m not saying people can’t expect what they want to expect, but they shouldn’t be surprised that SWTOR isn’t pimped out yet.
    - guest
      
      that is the worst analogy i’ve read in a long time
- Dargan
  
  exactly, thats why I am expecting too and every smart dude out there. if the dev team cant look at wow and other mmos and take their setup as a start base for their game, they only prove they are extremely narrow minded and stupid. to try to re-invent the wheel is beyond s.tupid, its i.diotic.
- Dargan
  
  exactly, thats why I am expecting too and every smart dude out there. if the dev team cant look at wow and other mmos and take their setup as a start base for their game, they only prove they are extremely narrow minded and stupid. to try to re-invent the wheel is beyond s.tupid, its i.diotic.
- Anonymous
  
  No, he see’s the game in its current state 2 months from launch not even ressembling something even slightly in depth and as skillful or at least have the capacity for skillful gameplay.
  
  He is also trying to address and issue now, its not smart to put of an issue via an assumption that it will be ok. If story is that implemented now a feature such as pvp may be what they deem as finished.
Psuedonym

I don’t think this deserved it’s own “article” yet if only 37 people have voted.
Elton

Ah, the art of writing so much but saying so little. It’s not easy.
Joey

People need to understand, this is a brand new game…. WoW has 3 expansions, with a 4th on its way. You have to come into this game with a new-game-mindset. If you’re just constantly comparing it with other MMO’s, you’ll never enjoy yourself in the game.
- Nikon23
  
  So your point of view is “i accept every shitty thing in the game, cause it will get better and i won’t complain” ?
  - Metalhead92787
    
    No his point is that if you life pvp in wow, and you blame Swtor for not being exactly like wow, thats your fault, not Biowares fault. Bioware is its own company and they wanted to make pvp in their own way.
    
    If you don’t like it then stay with wow’s scripted and twitchy pvp which i personally hate.
    His point is that you shouldn’t make assumptions approach the game with a little wisdom.
    
    Try having no expectations, you then remain neutral to everything and let the merits of the games own system speak for itself.
- mightymouse
  
  true about wow, and after each expansion it got more idiotproof. in cata they redesigned talents to be more common and simple or whatever, and in panda expansion they will get completely idiotproof. yea, that’s depth.
  
  this site is getting really annoying. giving their space to such bs. and wasting my time. i’m really excited about swtor because i don’t know what to expect (in pve) and that’s the beauty of it. true, i know a little about it watching those fine beta videos but that’s someone elses experience. all those fine planets to visit… who cares about pvp, go play cod or whatever
  - Nikon23
    
    ye right and you are no kind if idiot when you flame those people who want to improve the game
- Takionbrst
  
  That’s a completely inept comparison. The fact of the matter is, WoW pioneered. 7 years later, in what BW spins as a “next-gen” mmo, you’ve got to do a lot of things right out of the gate. I’m not expecting the level of development and polish (I use that word and it makes my skin crawl, I think the game was much more fun when it lacked its mirror finish) that WoW has, but I need at least some progress. When you blather on with statements like that, all you’re doing is toeing the BW fanboi party line, and ultimately doing a disservice to the game.
  - Prince
    
    its actually a perfect comparison. wow pvp in patch 1.0 (this means when it shipped) was 10x times better and more fun then in this game, even if this game was made years after wow appeared. this only shows how t-arded are the developers, to even hire warhammer devs for more then whipping the floors is the more s-tupid thing I heard in my life, those guys not only shouldnt be hired, but they should be flogged to death in the middle of street cause they annoyed with their crap game ton of innocent gamers.
    
    I personally put age of conan and warhammer before prince of persia 1.0, thats the one who was made for 80-86 around 20 years ago.
    - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_5Q4EOQG272OK33BIUHLXOJXUM4 Chris
      
      English, do you speak it? I mean seriously. After inserting several words to try and decipher some meaning out of your post I get the feeling that you think they wronged gamers. That isn’t the case. The warhammer devs were fine, I think they just ran out of money and had to push out a game that simply wasn’t ready for public consumption. They had a lot of good ideas and the potential was there. They just couldn’t capitalize on it. That’s a shame really because the warhammer IP is boss.
      - GeezerGamer
        
        The single worst thing that happened to WAR was that 1 month after it’s release WOW released a new expansion (WotLK iirc). People flocked back to WOW and WARs population shrank by 1/2 or 2/3 or more.
    - Kain
      
      Lies wow 1.0 was a total mess, rogues were god mode in PvP with with naked players with starting dagger killing ppl in epic. Hunters were a totally broken class till patch 1.6 and Locks were a free HK until deathcoil was added. I won’t even get into the broken rage mechanics for warriors.
      
      don’t post lies. 1.0 was garbage.
  - Prince
    
    its actually a perfect comparison. wow pvp in patch 1.0 (this means when it shipped) was 10x times better and more fun then in this game, even if this game was made years after wow appeared. this only shows how t-arded are the developers, to even hire warhammer devs for more then whipping the floors is the more s-tupid thing I heard in my life, those guys not only shouldnt be hired, but they should be flogged to death in the middle of street cause they annoyed with their crap game ton of innocent gamers.
    
    I personally put age of conan and warhammer before prince of persia 1.0, thats the one who was made for 80-86 around 20 years ago.
  - Keelala
    
    They never claimed this to be the “next-gen” mmo. They have said many times it will be WoWish (which really means MMOish). With there own flare. They never claimed they was going to reinvent the mmo-wheel.
  - Keelala
    
    They never claimed this to be the “next-gen” mmo. They have said many times it will be WoWish (which really means MMOish). With there own flare. They never claimed they was going to reinvent the mmo-wheel.
Guest

I’m with the take there time group, as long as there’s some basic balance for now work on depth later imo.
Herr Jeh

bring us polls with at least 200 voters, then we can talk about
Baka

pvp is better and more fun then wow (played wow 4year and playing swtor beta) they just need to fix some littel bugs
- Oldschool
  
  I’ve played WoW since Dec. of 2004… and I can say after dabbling with a friend’s copy of the beta…. the pvp is not better or more fun.
  - BHPower
    
    Maybe you should “in your opinion” to that.
  - Anonymous
    
    Seems silly to make a judgement after only “dabbling” in TOR’s beta compared to almost seven years of WoW. But maybe that’s just me.
Herr Jeh

ah and let us talk about the lack of pvp when we know how ilum will plays out
Kodo

Question is, is he talking about level 50 or what?
Arkham

I think the flaw of the “depth” in the OP is stated on the “PvP Simulation”, because he describes a 1v1 duel similar to an Arena Match.

SWTOR does not have Arena, its PvP is team and objective based, which in my totally clueless opinion, gives the required depth, and forgive me to add, FUN
Theargo

Why does betacake keep publishing these beta testers moronic reviews/suggestions/ideas? it just makes the site look bad, as if you agree with these retards.
- Metalhead92787
  
  well Betacake has to publish both sides, you can’t just post swtor fanbois all the time that would make betacake look bad.
- lupe
  
  all the positive reviews are the same. ‘I LIKE THE GAME. EVERYTHING WAS GREAT. KOTOR 3-10′. there is no use in reading them.
  - Mirrormirror
    
    all the negative reviews are the same. ‘SWTOR SUCKS. WAAH WAAH WAAH. GOING BACK TO WOW’. there is no use in reading them.
    - Eaisbad
      
      oh there is a use but you dont see it. the use is that this way, some i-diotic m,orons tor fanboys will be thrown back to the light and understand that their new toy is garbage. this way they will end playing a game that actually worth its money, not some EA craptastic new title thats only made to put a hole in your pocket.
      - Ateew
        
        Or, in a more constructive fashion, it hints at what aspects of the game are lacking, pushing our expectations back down so that we don’t get disappointed when TOR isn’t ‘The One True MMO’ that pleases everyone and does it all just right.
John delios

Having just looked at the SW and Inq Abilities. I find their general use very similar to wow’s abilities. They might have to work a bit on the cd’s of all CC abilities but that’s just fine tuning.
And I played a Warlock in wow so imagine spending most of your playing time gimped in relation to rogues and warriors.
As far as I can remember Wow always had one class OP in each of all seasons while one or more classes were not performing “as intended”. So I hardly find the comparison to wow any good, since for the most part their PvP was always half broken.
- Sopello-przecudny
  
  maybe that was intended… let’s make one class OP, so that ppl will powerlevel that class to have one in pvp (thay stay ingame few months more)
- Anonymous
  
  ‘Broken’ is relative.
  
  I would say that it is far to acknowledge that gamers do enjoy WoW’s PvP — as demonstrated by the high resubs still — and that many will compare TOR pvp directly against WoW.
  
  It is not about making Pvp ‘perfect’, but rather making Pvp competative and acceptable to the gaming community (as they compare it against WoW PvP).
  - John delios
    
    Yep I get your argument. The thing is, at least to me it would’ve been way better had they gone action mmorpg style combat like TFU instead of Wow’s style combat system.
    In wow’s style combat you have a set rotation of spells 1-2-3 and prevent cc’s then counterattack w spells 1-2-3 again.
    Whereas in a TFU environment it’s more about personal skill and a larger set of choices imo.
    
    Just glancing over the assassins abilities and talents I can see that you’ll always do 2 Voltaic Slashes to get the 30% dmg buff on shock then use shock after that so there’s always a set rotation even in PvP. Imo that takes away much needed freedom and choice from Pvp.
- Trexdino6666
  
  Warlock might’ve been really bad in 1v1 vs melee class but it’s top class when it comes to 3v3 arena performance. Group combat ftw.
Aperture Science

Vanilla WoW had no battlegrounds. No arena. All it had was world PvP, and Undead Rogues were so ridiculously OP they could defeat any class 1v1, some many levels higher.

To say that an MMO needs polished endgame PvP at launch in order to survive is just stupid.
- Anonymous
  
  Actually it is rather realisitic.
  
  TOR needs to be able to compete with game TODAY, not games from 2004.
  
  People will try TOR, and will not compare it to WoW 2004, but rather they will compare it to WoW 2011.
  
  So, yes, TOR does need to be ‘as good as’ WoW 2011.
  
  It is not about being ‘fair’, but rather about what the Market expects from a gaming product in 2011/2012.
  - BHPower
    
    How about WoW in a year from now when the completely simplify the talent trees and abilities? Sounds like SWTOR is ahead of the curve then.
  - Guest
    
    so swtor is expected to pump out a game on release that is better in all ways then any existing game?
    
    PvP may need improvement but no mmo can compete with the story elements. PvP should exist but the main market for this game is clearly PvE and RPG, expecting fully functional PvP on release to compare to a game that’s had 7 years to refine PvP is totally unrealistic.
- Kain
  
  100% agree, but ppl don’t wanna remember it like it was. I suspect many didn’t play on release and joined after patch 1.8, like that was anything like release.
  
  wow 1.0 PvP was a joke. rogue>all
- Asdfj
  
  That would be like saying, a new line of FPS games only needs to be as good at launch as BF1942. It simply must be on the level of current games otherwise it will fail. In 3 years from now will you use the same logic and say you can’t compare TOR at 3 years old against Wow at 9 years old.
Anonymous

As usual, before we go defending BW and TOR, where are all the examples that PvP is indepth and amazing?

True, it is a small sampling, but the question I have before dismissing it as ‘invalid’, is where are the opposing examples indicating that PVP is strong and engaging?
Arneb-1989

lmao i love his example with the warrior vs mage in WoW.. warrior did not get to melee the mage at all in his example, op mages!
Sarko

As many have already point out, 37 votes isn’t enough to form a basis in which to judge, especially when fairly minor polls tend only attract people from the two extremes. This isn’t really news, it’s far too early to post.

When judging the depth we should remember the amount of the people on the server is far less than when TOR is launched, being beta, so can they or we really judge until we actually play. I can’t and won’t judge since I will be playing on a PvE-RP server, since other than the odd game of Hutt Ball etc I won’t be engaging in PvP.
- The Mystic Eye
  
  I agree withy Sarko. There are not enough people in the pool and those are probably the, always more vocal and usually very active minority of PVP enthusiasts. While I think the point may be valid I would think a broader sample of the base in beta would tell a better story.
  I too am more interested in the PVE and group content over PVP which will be a fun aside for me in this game. I am not some who likes to spend 10 hours raiding but will do raids from time to time. I don’t care that much about PVP ranking either.
  - Anonymous
    
    While not a solid example, it is an indication that there might be issues that BW should be looking at.
    
    Worst thing to do, is to dismiss such feedback, and assume that ‘silence = loving Pvp’.
    
    It would different if the boards were filled with ‘loving pvp’ posts and ‘best pvp ever’. However, this is not the first time we have heard criticism about PvP — and we all know how difficult PvP is to ‘get right’ in the first place.
Dinorage

Remember for the last 2 years there main point of the game was fully Voice and Story driven MMO. So it should tell you the PvP may be lacking, it may not be there top 2 or maybe top 5 things to get done ASAP. I want a great open world Starwars game. However I do understand when I Pre-order SWTOR I may not get that in this game. If they had said we plan on given you a rock hard epic battles of Sith players and Republic player battles. Then yea I would want them to focus on working on PvP becasue they said epic battles vs other players. I have been jumping MMOs for afew years looking for PvP. However it fall shorts due to them Foucs on there PvE and less PvP or its a grind to even get to the level needed to take part in PvP. Im sorry Im not a fan of Areas or Battlegrounds all to much. I like world PvP like in DoC, WAR “when it looked like they where trying to fix it” SWG and EvE.
BHPower

He lost me at World of Warcraft iz has much moar depth.
- Iloveulongtime
  
  watch some of Reckful’s videos at Skillcapped then, and tell me wow pvp doesn’t have depth.
Guy

No shit. TOR is WoW minus Arenas, ranked BGs and open world PvP. 3 BGs and WoW combat system makes for such advanced PvP, right? :/

Yes, at this point, even the PvE carebear land named World of Warcraft has more depth in it’s PvP.

Until there is detailed information about Illum with proofs that all that isn’t just marketing BS, there is nothing to discuss. And seeing as TOR is almost gold and there is zero info released on open PvP, well…
- Pvp-potato
  
  “minus arenas and ranked shit” is a good thing. all those losers who need to grind superior equipment to get the edge in battles are exactly that: losers.
  
  here’s to pvp in gw2 and to hoping that we can do it for fun and other stuff than shit-pvp-equipment with better stats than the majority.
  - Trexdino6666
    
    Most pvpers play ranked stuff to be the top dog, gear is just a thing they get to help them get to the top. But, at certain point all top guys have best gear, so it’s taken out of equation and you have pure pvp with depth. Only noobs with no skill complained about everything.
    
    Also, ranked BGs in WoW were their best pvp move they could do. They were SHITLOAD of fun and required some tactical approach.
Wegotstory

I have to disagree with the OP’s opinion that the mechanics need to be reworked. Those same mechanics worked extremely well in Warhammer and DAOC. Both games that are known more for their pvp than anything else.

The CC’s do seem to be a problem, and BW is working on that. But IMO they are no more of a problem than WOW having an exploiter class that can 3 shot kill anyone in every one of it’s builds. A CC death is no more annoying than a stun lock death to a rogue IMO. And they both require the same amount of skill, none. Basically an exploit, that is built into the game IMO. But the difference here is everyone in TOR can do this to you. Not just one class. If they get the CC control system under control it will be fine.

IMO the only things BW has to do to fix the pvp problem is to bring the Warhammer style pvp to the game, and start this from level 1. Warhammer style pvp lakes, rvr levels, planet capture mechanic and tons of pvp quest, with a Star Wars storyline will make TOR’s pvp pretty solid. Start quest for Warzones at level 1 and many pvpers will be happy. And all the mechanics are basically in game already. As even the planet capture mechanic is rumored to be in at later levels.

BW already has balances in place, in that all level people can go to a warzone. Just apply this same mechanic to pvp lakes and even level 50′s can fight over that starter planet.

BW has to realize pvpers want to pvp from lvl 1-50. Pvp servers are the traditional way to do this. But the problem on those servers IMO is pvp fights are far and few between. That is why I think the Warhammer rvr lakes, quests, rvr levels and planet capture mechanics are the perfect fit for TOR’s pvp mechanics. As it gives pvpers more choices. And it gives even pve fans a reason to pvp, which equals more fighting for the pvp fans. And it becomes almost a seperate game, which keeps players paying subs longer.

So IMO TOR’s pvp has everything it needs, BW just needs to take off the kit gloves and realize pvp players don’t want to be gently guided into pvp. They want to be thrown in, starting at level 1!!!!
- Maod
  
  DAOC was build around world PvP and the system worked for that game.
  WAR failed hard, and this system was very much the reason for this failure.
  
  And now the same devs are working in SWTOR and maybe responsible for the PvP there?
  Then I can say, that they will fail hard a 2nd time.
  
  No balance is in place at the moment. Yes they are trying, but the ranged classes are very much OP in the game, as it is now.
  
  About the balance and “good” PvP system in WAR I can say 2 words: Bright Wizard.
  - Elephantmansheep
    
    the reason for war’s failure isn’t the combat system. there is always excessant whining about that in every mmo: “class x is OP!” and what not.
    
    the reason for its failure is not the classes or abilities, but the rvr content they had. city sieges with resetting bossmobs? fortresses? rvdoor? it wasn’t designed well, it was bugged and frustrating.
    
    most people who come from WAR will praise its combat. so do i. it was just more fun and more complex than wow. that is subjective of course, but i hear alot more than war’s combat was fun than that it sucked.
    
    they did several things wrong, but the combat was designed well, even if unbalances between classes existed. you can’t design a mmorpg around massive battles and have every class be equally powerful in 1 vs 1. its not possible.
Pandy

Couldnt say… Havent tried it…But when I do I will
BHPower

Nothing most PVPrs fear more than real balance. It doesn’t matter how well it’s balance, or how engaging it is. When someone loses, they assume that they were awesome and the only way they could have been beaten was with hax. Then the cries rise up, and the devs, wanting to preserve the subs, start attempting to “balance” the classes, and before you know it all hell breaks loose. BioWare has the data, I’m sure they are doing their best to balance it, but it doesn’t matter, nobody on the loosing end of PVP thinks its balanced, and nobody on the winning side could ever conceive of a problem.
- Anonymous
  
  Imo, it simply has to do with being fun, like how basket ball, soccer, and other competative sports are fun — win or lose.
  
  Those that cannot handle losing have their own issues they should learn to deal with.
  
  So long as PvP is competitive and enjoyable, the tipping of balance is not as big an issue, imo.
  
  So BW should focus on making PvP fun and enjoyable.
Darth Scor

I can understand the problem with Silences and counter moves that the OP brings up. I think silences would be changed if people would really like them to be more prevalent in the game. Counter moves are a different situation. I don’t think BW wants there to be classes and counter classes in TOR like there is in WoW. At the highest level, the best players can beat anyone of any class. A step below the highest level, that is not necessarily the case.

For the longest time, WoW has been a game of Flavor of the Season when it comes to the composition of arena teams. These teams are designed around picking comps that counter other comps. I feel like BW is trying to get around this model by trying not to design specific classes with counter measures for other specific classes.

With all that said, most people have only seen low level Warzones because there have not been many videos posted of level 50 players in Warzones. I get the feeling that this is because not a ton of people reach level 50 in the beta. It is a simple numbers correlation, less videos of level 50s means less level 50s.

The OP may be 100% correct, but I can’t and won’t take this argument posted with any weight.
Iloveulongtime

This is no surprise to me at all. It’s enough to read the lists of abilities and look at the talent trees to realize that the PvP is extreamly shallow.

The nr. 1 problem, in my opinion, is that the spells don’t really do anything. The effects are too weak and too few. It’s really just a watered-down version of WoW spells.

That being said, I still think it will be a great game, but for reasons other than pvp.
Yobrotha

haha I have to point out that swtor isnt ballanced around 1v1 fights and never will be its, ballanced around group fights and group pvp so his example of a mage and a warrior is just a joke because its got nothing to do with the pvp in swtor… sure u will be able to run around solo doing pvp but if u you do you will also loose alot of the dynamic of the combat and the teamwork….
- Iloveulongtime
  
  Wow isn’t balanced around 1-1 fights either though, so I don’t really see what your point is. If you even have one.
  
  He was using the warrior-mage fight as an example of the dynamics between abilities and their counters, in wow.
Maod

Most can say about WoW what they want, but PvP was fast paced and had enough tactical depth.
If someone in the Betaforums is voicing his concern, that the PvP in SWTOR lacks depth, then he could have a point, because I saw many leaked PvP vids with Mid-Lvl characters (and I suppose at this LvL most characters will have all of their important skills) and I saw now tactical depth in the fights either.
At the moment the PvP quality in SWTOR is compareable with the one in Rift.
But dont get me wrong, the PvP in Rift is good at the first glance, but on the long run very bland and repetitive.
I see the same bashings and shallow tactical depth in the SWTOR beta-leaks, like I saw it when I played Rift at Lvl 50 with the PvP grinding until Rank 5.
And on the one side, I can say, that SWTOR will take the same route for PvP’ers like Rift did, and that is no way to keep them playing.

The problem is, a PvP’er can now see, how SWTOR will look like in the endgame.
And the picture promise no PvP which will entertain the player for a long time, f.e. like WoW did.

I’m a player, who likes to play the PvE and PvP endgame.
It is sad, that after WoW no MMO delivered a good PvP system with enough tactical depth.

Are 37 votes enough to reflect an opinion of the beta playerbase?
No one knows, but for me it is a additional mosaic stone in the SWTOR picture and the PvP’er in me is not amused.

If they fail to deliver an excellent PvE endgame, which can compensate the lack of a good PvP system, then this game will fail or be at best a 2nd Rift.
Anonymous

Main post updated with the most recent poll results plus another poll about PvP.

Seems like the testers are not exactly happy with the current state of PvP in-game.
- Anonymous
  
  Just want to say thank you BC for posting stuff like this — and maintaining it. It is nice to get a peak at the beta boards.
- Killuminati
  
  Thanks for the update Cake
WTF Pvp Depth!?

Wait how the hell is PVP have depth in the first place?!

U ppl just wack each other to death with either swords or Spells and Gank each other.

I’m sorry but to me, most pvp’ers are just some of the most immature people I’ve ever met, Sure there are professional teams and etc with “mature” people…. But I can’t take you guys seriously…you complain about anything/everything if “YOU” (god forbid someone else wins) aren’t winning/top of the charts.
I mean how the hell do we know that Sith Sorcerers were so OP? B/c You guys complained of course.

(sigh) I honestly don’t get it…You guys want this Ub3r l33t W0w Pvp system to be in… If you want the ultimate pvp setting…Get off the Computer and Get into MMA/UFC Fighting (Or watever the hell you people say isn’t Nerf’d) and if you break your neck…that’s one less complainer out there and I say the world is better off

TL;CR: PVP’ers <3 to Complain, so your Opinions is null and void…and WTF is Depth in PVP?! "ZoMg I can't Stun or Some @!#$ Q_Q"
- Anonymous
  
  For PvPers like myself, we are seeking something similar to the enjoyment we get when we are playing competitive sports.
  
  Imo, it is not really the ‘pvper’, that is the problem, but rather the person dealing with issues of inferiority, who end up abusing weaknesses in PvP in an effort to fill the void in their self esteem.
  
  Many of the normal pvpers I have met, are more akin to the people I meet on the athletic field when playing sports.
  - Pvp Depth!?
    
    +1 to this
    
    I understand that there are a few people out there that are mature about getting into Pvp and some(ALOT) who are not (staring at you Mr.”Xcore”)
    
    I am a PVE person ( *GASP* IKR?So not obvious ), and I dabble into PVP occasionally but just b/c I might have lost a match doesn’t mean I blame everyone and everything around me…
    
    Then again the same argument can be used with Raiders, It’s not the person’s fault, its all the other Raiders and the Game is broken…
    
    But I do see the trend that PVP’ers are more aggressive than PVE’ers, that’s one reason I can’t stand them personally, I mean the Smack talk, the Name calling, the abusive language…..
    
    (Sigh) But like you said, its more akin to Competitive sport, and I personally don’t do sports all that well
    
    I do agree with you in that, I think it does have more to do with the person behind the computer screen exploiting the weaknesses…
    
    Nonetheless I appreciate your POV/Opinion
SWTORJoe

Subjective opinions are subjective. Dont like it dont buy it, its that simple.
Metalhead92787

My defintion of pvp depth is pvp i have fun in lol .

Personally I hated WoW’s desgin in pvp the whole..act,react chain of counters that who ever screws up ( or lag spikes) first dies

I am looking foward to a slower paced system
- Metalhead92787
  
  My defintion of pvp depth in* pvp
- Sopello-przecudny
  
  I still have nightmares after rogue stun locks… brrrr
BigBob

People like to bitch but I haven’t seen one person yet post what exactly is needed. Or even pinpoint exactly what is wrong in the first place other than “CC’s” and a step by step breakdown of what you can do in WoW followed by the complaint that TOR’s PvP isn’t deep like WoW.

Can we get anyone who has long experience in TOR PvP come on and break it down for us? And I don’t mean level 15 PvP, or level 30 PvP. I mean level 50 PvP with a lot of hours logged playing within the PvP environment. Anyone else doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about IMHO.
- Anonymous
  
  There are a few comments about PvP, including those from people that have claimed to have played to max level.
  
  For the most part, they tend to reflect what we see in the poll screenshot — majority is not impressed with it.
  
  It seems too many are hoping for some miracle post to disprove any and all criticism, rather than being a customer and expressing their desire for BW to make damn sure that they are working their best at PvP — and the rest of the game.
Guest1

Wait so we can’t get gear from world PvP? Pretty sure BioWare said we can get best pvp gear from World pvp and warzones combined at PAX 2011.
- Joygazmko
  
  Are you taking the OPs review as facts from BIOWARE?
  
  Maybe its a review of the minimal content he actually tried.
  - Guest1
    
    I hope so.
- Herr Jeh
  
  bioware talking about world pvp = ilum, most people talking about world pvp = griefing and ganking everywhere else. latter one will not give gear, first one nobody has tested yet….
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1245541647 Tony Rivera

All the bad PvP complaints I see sound exactly like the ones from Warhammer beta/launch. This is PvP by the same team that did DAOC and warhammer, not WOW. It’s team based and maybe alittle heavy on CC hehe.
Too many people want 1v1 classes for pvp, small scale battle and all classes to be able to duel on even ground.
I’m not defending it, b/c it’s beta and I’m sure there’s plenty of balance left. From what I’ve seen/heard/read/etc. it’s being designed as a rock/paper/scissors game, not rock/rock/rock.
- Anonymous
  
  I do not mind Team PvP (actually prefer it, and would love to see a more ‘squad’ based system).
  
  However, we have not seen posts from people raving about how good the team based PvP is — which troubles me, and give more credibility to the growing critical comments about Pvp.
  
  People loved to bash critical reviewers. They bashed this pool for being too small. Yet when BC updates it to a larger poll, we see that same critical trend.
  
  For me, it is a stronger indication that there are issues with PvP, than not.
John delios

Actually I don’t know about you guys, but most of the PvP videos i’ve seen of TOR the ppl playing reallly really suck at it. I think I’ve seen like 4-5 videos of huttball where one player is almost dead, gets the HP canister in the corner and then proceeds to MURDER the fool who didn’t stun/slow him in the first place.
Guest

They just added the world PvP stuff in the latest (read: brand spanking new) build.

While I agree the PvP needs work. There is a distinct problem with the notion that the current state is wrong. PvP, and PvP balance, rely heavily on “meta games”.

For those of you unfamiliar with RTS’ a metagame is the “Game within a game” for example, in Starcraft 2, for Zerg, there are 3 metagames. ZvZ, ZvP, and ZvT. (One for each matchup).

Now, without any balance changes, or additions to the game, the win/loss ratio of any given matchup can swing WILDLY. There was one month where Protoss were winning something like 70% of games vs Zerg…and without a patch the next month it just swung the opposite way.

How does this apply to a MMO? Well it takes time for the metagame of each class, in each role, in each scenario to play out, it is very hard to see how that stuff is going to turn out with a limited beta group at level 50.

Most of WoW’s cool complex stuff came post launch. And while it is easy to say “Well there are different standards now”, that technically doesn’t follow. Unless you copy paste from WoW (I’m pretty sure most people don’t want that considering the amount of hate for “WoW clones” round these parts), it is EXTREMELY hard to have uber complexity and depth from the start while keeping it balanced. WoW added this stuff because they had years of experience/testing on live done.

He also uses a 1v1 example. SW:TOR is not, and was never intended to be a game about 1v1 PvP.

I would also like to point out the examples the guy used….are also used by WoW PvPers as to why WoW PvP is BROKEN. Most top PvPrs whine non stop about Mage CC/Blink (as a Rogue…FUCK BLINK AND ICEBLOCK)/iceblock. WoW still isn’t balanced.

So I agree, yes.

PvP in SW:TOR lacks depth. But I challenge anyone to give me a good reason why this is a terrible thing at launch?

SW:TOR is also (aside from Sorcs and Sages, though they are nearly in line now) a nearly perfectly balanced game.

What is more important to you at launch? Balance or depth?

I for one am tired of broken PvP, I for one am tired of developers tacking on “OH MY GOSH LOOK WHAT YOU CAN DO NOW PLS BUY” into the combat.

I for one would rather have a company take the time to make everything they have work, and be balanced, and worry about adding “depth” in the form of content patches (you know why they are charging a subscription fee), and adding cool new stuff – that has had the same amount of work towards balance – be added in expansions or otherwise.

You guys honestly expect hyper advanced, uber awesome stuff from a game in beta? It is impossible to balance things like that with limited numbers unless you have a ridiculously long beta test.

You have to remember that this game is a Subscription model game, from a huge publisher (EA) and one of the most respected companies in the industry, you have to remember they are using a new engine (Hero) that they will only get more comfortable with and push the limits of in time. They’ve also said they’ve planned for at least a decade, and James Ohlen said they’re plan was to PUSH content hard post launch. Launch for BioWare has always been about delivering a polished game with as many features as possible represented. Depth was to be added later.

You can bet 2 years from now, when the first expansion rolls around, BioWare has feedback and metrics from millions of users instead of thousands, when they have money rolling in, when they can hire bigger better teams, when they have become FAR better at utilizing the Hero Engine and can really start pushing what it is capable of, that we will see some FAR cooler stuff than we are seeing now.

Again, yeah PvP needs work. I’ve never once seen a game where I thought PvP was “perfect” or even “fine” when it launched. PvP in MMOs will almost always evolve after launch, which is why i don’t like them as e-sports.

PvP lacks the depth of a game that has a team with NEARLY 8 YEARS OF INTIMATE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THEIR GAME AND 3 SOON TO BE 4 EXPANSIONS TO IT?

I am perfectly fine with that. You know why. Because SW:TOR will have something WoW has never had in those 8 years, a presence I have not felt since….

Balance.

Honestly do people think game devs are Rocky Bobby? They wake up in the morning, piss excellence onto a hard drive and have a fully featured, massive, open, sandbox, balanced PvP MMO with all the things people demand? You should probably stop being a backseat dev and actually to be a programmer or designer, you know why there are so many flops/bad games/disappointments? Because making good games is HARD.

With the expectations you guys have, Guild Wars 2 won’t please you either, because you’ll get past the amazing WvWvW PvP, and you’ll glance past everything the game does exceptionally and focus on the fact it doesn’t have a concrete end game PvE system, that it has too much of the world without the ability to PvP, or that weapon swapping is a stupid disguise for having dumbed down class system (I swear I’m going to see that someday).

You know why these piecemeal posts suck? Context. Or rather the lack thereof.

You expect perfection from a MMO on launch day? Tell me how that goes, I’ll check back with you in 20 years to see if you’ve found even one yet.

Moreover PvP in SW:TOR is flat out fun. No that fun will absolutely not last forever, but by then we will see added depth. That is how MMOs are supposed to function. By the time your players start to get worn, you’ve added new stuff to the game for them to do.
- Guest
  
  And btw what kind of poll is that.
  
  It is a leading question. Much in the same way a lawyer will ask a question that leads a witness to answer a certain way.
  
  Who isn’t going to think “More is better” of course the majority of people are going to think “Oh yeah I want more depth”. And the vast majority are going to flat out say “No I am good”. If people thought like that we wouldn’t have Multibillionaires, because they’d stop taking more money.
- BigBob
  
  Awesome post. Totally agree.
- Maod
  
  At first glance your rage is mildly amusing.
  
  1. SWTOR wont have this luxus to last a time after release to present a balanced PvP enviroment.
  Big competitors (and one even strong in PvP) are in the starting holes an will be released some months after SWTOR (Yes, the perfect time, where the rose googles in SWTOR are down and they see the game as it is)
  
  So, yes they better do have a balanced PvP with enough depth, or they will lose most of the PvP playerbase.
  
  The WoW PvP was so enjoyable, because it was fast paced and every class had their countermoves and the one with the better timing won.
  That is good PvP.
  
  The PvP in Rift was “team based”. Means there was no real balance (point to Rift, it is hard to balance out a game with this flexible skill system).
  And in all the battlegrounds there was only a big Zerg. Because this game is “team based’.
  
  A little analogy of the Rift PvP:
  Paper sees scissors on the open field for a 1vs1, paper didnt engage him.
  Paper waited for rock, the scissors waited for paper …. …. and the Zerg is on.
  
  In WoW my best PvP-moments were in the 1vs1 or 1vs2 encounters.
  A good player and no too far in the equip, had the chance to outmaneuver them with a good timing.
  That is PvP and I know, that GW2 will deliver a good PvP so BW/EA is in no position to slack off.
  
  2. There is no balance in SWTOR as it is now.
  There are OP ranged classes and this goes on for months.
  But even more, the bolster system is no broken, that PvP at it is, is for most of the people unplayable.
  A little reminder though, they have 2 months until the release, so they dont have that much time.
  
  3. MMOs these times, have no luxus like WoW did 6 years ago
  
  You know why?
  - The market is full of competitors.
  - The average MMO player is experienced from several previous MMOs and he knows exactly, what he wants in a new MMO.
  That means, a new MMO on the market has no luxus grace period after release to get things straight.
  Now it is swim or sink.
  - The subscription base is an old model and will be gone with future MMOs. SWTOR one of the last of this kind and from a subscription based MMO I have a higher expectance.
  So that means, SWTOR has no grace period to get things straight.
  
  And yes, I can voice my concern, if the Betaplayers are saying that the PvP in SWTOR lacks depth, because the same devs are on this project, who sinked the PvP system in WAR.
  Yes, I am most concerned about the PvP quality in SWTOR.
  And I say it one again, SWTOR has no grace period, as one of the last subscription based MMO on the market, to get things straight.
  They have 2 months, and regarding the PvP system problems on the beta servers, I dont think that they will make it in time.
Haunchofmeat

If there is a lack of depth in the PvP, it is primarily because the classes are intended to be close enough that anyone can win in 1v1 any other person, no matter the class.

The main source of depth in WoW PvP comes from the rock-paper-scissors style of PvP balance, where the warrior has to work his ass off to beat a mage of comparable skill (which is still unlikely) and the rogue has to be much better than the warrior in order to come out on top.

When you give everybody a much more equal footing, then countering a player’s actions with class abilities is less important, but moving around your environment, quicker reflexes and superior tactics become the main deciding factor and not “the mage blinked out of Cheap Shot, that’s a wrap”.

I’m not ignoring that those factors I mentioned above are integral to all PvP strategy, but in general, when there are fewer factors, the importance of each is magnified.
- Anonymous
  
  In warzones, 1v1s are 100% irrelevant currently. If you stop to kill someone 1v1, the chances are at least 50/50 that you’re actually hurting your team. The fun/strategy/depth in TOR is all about the team dynamics and objectives. If you want 1v1s or arena deathmatches, you won’t like TOR’s warzones at all.
antracone

dunno why some people think being simple is bad.
any pvper will(and should) prefer a ‘balanced but not-so-deep game’ over an almost-impossible to balance (due to the complexity) game.
- Anonymous
  
  It is less about being ‘balanced’, and more about being fun.
  
  Simply is not fun for a lot of people.
  
  What I would like to see is some PvP system that is more than just face rolling the keyboard. I actually like having a more ‘rock-paper-scissor’ approach, than making everything vanilla.
  - antracone
    
    i don’t see the relation between a rock-paper-scissors approach and the game’s complexity. you can have that approach in a simpler game aswell.
    
    and the fun and thrill of player-vs-player comes from a balanced and equal competition, nothing else. it’s about self improvement, pushing yourself to be the best you can and playing to win. you have your fun through that competition at the end.
    
    compare huttball to hockey for example, hockey doesn’t have a rock-paper-scissors concept, it’s an incredibly simple game, doesn’t have that much of a ‘depth’ at all, and it is still a hell of a lot of fun.
    - Anonymous
      
      While the basic rules of hockey are simple, the gameplay itself is relatively complex.
      
      Likewise, the rules for PvP are simple, but for myself, I prefer to see a more complex system, than just face rolling.
      
      For myself, balance is relative. Some classes do better against a class, some players are just better players, some toons have better stat distribution, etc. It is rarely 100% balanced or ‘fair’ — but then again, most competitions are never 100% fair.
      
      PvP should be designed to be interesting and enjoyable, rather than focusing on making sure everyone gets a ‘Spirit Trophy’, ‘score is not kept’ and ‘making sure no one’s feels get hurt’.
      - antracone
        
        >hockey gameplay is complex
        >prefer to see complex systems
        Complexity scales a bit strange for you i guess. How one can call swtor’s pvp faceroll while calling hockey’s gameplay complex is beyond me. I just can’t decide if i should suggest chess or tetris.
        
        >For myself, balance is relative. Some classes do better against a class, some players are just better players, some toons have better stat distribution, etc. It is rarely 100% balanced or ‘fair’ — but then again, most competitions are never 100% fair.
        >PvP should be designed to be interesting and enjoyable.
        
        See, that’s a different approach. I don’t want to sound elitist or xcore, but you have a casual players view. for true pvpers(apologies but i don’t know what else to call this group) balance, class mechanics and competition come before anything. If it is necessary to maintain a balance, we’re simply fine with a game relatively simpler than current popular mmos, and it is necessary. Because of the massive complex horseshit it has become, WoW’s pvp is beyond repair right now. You just don’t sacrifice balance in competitive games/sports for funsies and cool spells if you can’t balance them.
        
        Balance might seem relative and hard to achieve, currently popular mmos might have shit for balance, but that doesn’t mean the upcoming games shouldn’t aim to be better in terms of balance and competition.
        
        How much shit wow and alike brought to the gaming world is amazing, yet we are still trying to cling to their broken values.
        
        TL;DR: The first thing you want in pvp should be balance, and you should sacrifice complexity for balance if you have to. Believe me, people will NOT be happy when things become an unbalanced fucked up mess like wow is right now, no matter how complex the mechanics are or where you put their characters in.
    - BHPower
      
      Anyone who says any professional team sport doesn’t have depth doesn’t know anything about the sport. You think they just throw twelve guys on the ice with stick and say “have fun”?
      - antracone
        
        I do know hockey very well and yes, I don’t think its gameplay has much depth.
        
        ANY game gains a depth when you take the teamplay into consideration. Same goes for any mmo, regardless of their gameplay mechanics, as long as it allows teamplay.
the choosen one

I tend to like every aspect of the game so far, I think both the pve and pvp looks fun.
The only ”major” things is the cover system, and the overflow of ccs…
But hey there is still time before launch and who says it cant be fixed?
Mcleised

Soooo, maybe people shouldn’t expect charity style, 7 years being released PvP that WoW had coming out of a game (whose main goal is to be a story driven mmoRPG) that is about to finally be released. Expect the variety of vanilla WoW, maybe BC but without the arenas, at least at launch.
Mantiss

I’ve never seens a happy PvP forum in any game since EQ. Also the poll size is a joke, scrap it and move along, move along. These aren’t the polls you’re looking for.
http://www.facebook.com/people/Dan-Lever/100001103816209 Dan Lever

I’m not really into PvP, so this doesn’t bother me.
Darth Tator

I find your lack of PvP disturbing….
vmoped

As an avid pvp player since MUDS I have to laugh at saying WoW has in depth pvp. I have played many mmo’s and WoW is never at the top of the list of games with good or great pvp. All of my friends and I who have played games together over the years found it too shallow and gear dependent. Even with all gear being the same it still was a shallow script system of if x then y. I hardly find that in depth at all just a matter of learned motor response which btw one of my mates trains monkeys to do. I have no illusions that SWTOR will offer any better pvp than WoW, but I don’t fool myself into thinking WoW has skillful or epic pvp by any stretch of the imagination.

Cheers!
- Anonymous
  
  Again, I to not think people feel WoW is a stellar example of PvP, but rather see it as one of the better working examples we have.
- Vrath
  
  I’m thinking you didn’t watch the recent championships at Blizzcon… The pvp skill level and complexity of the matches was astounding. The complexity in WoW comes from the amount of things you need to be situationally aware of / track and your team coordination / communication.
  
  I do agree about the gear aspect detracting from the overall pvp environment.
  - Asd
    
    It’s like when you open a restaurant and instead of comparing your restaurant with other restaurants they compare it with Mcdonalds, sure Mcdonalds is pretty popular and the food is edible, so what?
    
    You want to tal about depth in pvp, talk about DAoC.
Samatrain

It took Wow YEARS to evolve the pvp to whatever level it is now. Now people expect Swtor to have the exact same style all the while bitching it is just a copy of Wow. We will go through the exact same evolution all mmo pvp goes though with patch after patch of tweaks and changes after release.
- Anonymous
  
  TOR has the benefit of all those years of experience — what works, what didnt.
  
  Having all those years of research and development, is a big bonus to TOR’s development.
  
  It is not as if they are starting from scratch, or working in a void of MMO development.
  
  So yes, I do expect a bit more from TOR 2011/12, than I did from WoW 2004.
- BHPower
  
  It took years for WOW PVP to DEvolve to where it is now.
  - Vrath
    
    So I take it you thought it had a higher skill cap when you could spam decurse to auto dispell for you in PVP or that the skill cap was higher before focus targeting existed? Or maybe when I could take my raid gear + epic weapon pre resilience and 1 shot people.
Crimp

I prefer ToR’s pvp over WoW’s any day of the week. I remember WoW pre-BC were pally’s where a shit class to pvp with, and druids and priests were free HKs. I remember locks, hunters, mages, rogues, and WF shammys steamrolling everybody. PvP wasn’t and still isn’t a skill game, more akin to a numbers game, get lucky with the RNG and you win in pvp. I am glad that ToR doesn’t go in the direction that WoW went when in comes to pvp.
- Anonymous
  
  So are you claiming TOR’s system is superior, and if so, can you detail in what ways it excels?
  
  That is the thing I am not seeing in the reviews about TOR pvp — why it is good and better than other systems.
  
  It is an honest question, as from what I have seen in the videos, the PvP doesn’t look all that compelling to me and the idea that ‘hutball’ just seems rather silly.
  - http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NTE7NRF7PM2OVYGPYOJGY4527E Aaron
    
    Why does hutball seem silly when it’s basically CTF.
    - Anonymous
      
      It seems silly because it doesn’t really fit the context of the IP. It looks like something from say ‘The running Man’, than ‘Star Wars’.
      
      For a dev team that is supposed to be all about creativity, it is sad that they could not come up with a much better and more IP fitting setting for that particular BG.
- Vrath
  
  I dunno about you but I remembering 1v5 ing more than a few times on my SPriest pre resilience with Anathema and caster raid gear…
- Hdumpty
  
  ToR’s pvp is worse than pre-BC WoW’s by a mile. You also remember wrong if you thin priests were a free kill, shadow priests could destroy people and healing priests were perfect pocket healers for a warrior to just wreck a team. Paladins weren’t top dps but they certainly had survivability to make up for it and more than enough healing to make them a top target.
  
  ToR’s PvP is currently all about CC and ranged classes. Ranged have too much damage and CC that melee are 1/2 dead before they get there and immediately get hit with a knockback or stun where they promptly lose the rest of their life. Most ranged classes can keep you permanently snared. Then you mix in the healer DPS hybrids that have the highest survivability via healing and the highest DPS. Tanks are a joke as there are big issues with the defensive mechanics so it is easier to just spec and gear for DPS as your base armor rating will be the same and you can use guard and taunt like normal.
  
  The one thing that makes all this so much worse is the amount of stuns and incaps. I’ve been stunned from 100% health to dead more times in ToR’s beta than I ever have in WoW or warhammer. The resolve system is currently a mess and either does not function right or needs reworked. The amount of skill required to PvP in ToR is very low and most of the time it just turns into zerging.
  - Asd
    
    From what I have seen melee classes can manage themselves pretty well, force charge in and are super tough to kill.
    
    When playing warzones I only remember beign stuned once or twice, per match.
    
    There is no zerging in warzones since teams are balanced, you gave yourself away troll, i’m betting you didn’t even play the game.
Mcleised

Bolster system ftw
Ssh83

What kind of **** mage blinks on a charge? Though judging from that fact that nobody even catches that or care… I think TOR PvP will be just fine. More depth means better players will cream worse players and that’s bad news for general populace who tend to faceroll and expect to win by facerolling.
Anonymous

Glad the community is looking for more Pvp features, Mythic guys please pleaseeee bring back DAOC like Pvp .
- Herr Jeh
  
  play daoc if you like it so much… cant understand the begging for the return of a game, that ist still there…
Almondillo

I think the smaller playerbase in the beta also contributes to the issue because you only have so many people to face with and to test out all of the various aspects of the game. I guess it’s hard to entirely balance on launch, especially if you want pvp to be decent across all of the levels and not just endgame. (There will be better earlier classes at different level grades, but there shouldn’t be to the point they can destroy most things with little challenge).

I hope with the pvp they don’t take the approach WAR did and use separate RR and regular levels into account, though from what I’ve seen thus far it doesn’t seem to be the case. I think another big thing is to try to make all of the classes at least somewhat viable in pvp as well and to avoid excessive FOTMs like I’ve seen in various WoW seasons and what I’ve read in other mmos.

TL;DR – Work to balance the pvp across all the levels from 1 – 50 and try to make all the classes engaging. Work from there to add depth without sacrificing a good balance and team mechanics. Also to keep it from being excessively grindy/gear based like WoW’s was and to make you want to come back for more.
Gordon

Sure, rewards for open world kills. Thats not going to be exploited!!! /sarcasm

PVP features are good, but they have to do it the right way. Don’t let people kill each other over and over for rewards.
Pwnzor

2 big problems with PvP atm are melee vs caster imbalance and knockbacks.

There are no hard silences in the game, yet casters have access to roots, snares, and knockbacks to keep melee controlled. If they want to, a caster can easily cast right in a melee’s face at little to no penalty. The reason for this bs is that interrupts are god awful. They’re 4 second lockouts of a *single* ability on a 10 second cd. In other words, if you lock out a heal at 30%, the healer can simply laugh at you and cast another heal immediately, meanwhile you’ve just blown 20 resources.

Second problem is how effective knockbacks are in some warzones. Sometimes you’ll feel like a pinball being thrown around from place to place on Huttball or even worse, like a sack of crap when you get thrown off the bridge chokepoint on Voidstar. CC in general is out of control, but knockbacks in particular are painful because they cheapen the skill level of PvP. Anyone can hit their knockback button and get a sure kill on a scenario like Voidstar because you *have* to cross the chokepoint. All your skill gets thrown out the window by one button press. You might think it’s fun at first but it gets old quick. And you can’t get away from it because basically every class has one. There needs to be an immunity timer for knockback after you get with one. Another thing they need to do is give tank specs the ability to resist all movement displacement abilities on a cd.
- antracone
  
  On the knockback issue, I totally agree. WSG had one roof where you can abuse Thunderstorm, and the previous season more than %60 of the high rated teams abused elemental shamans there.
  
  About caster vs melee;
  WoW currently has way too many interrupts/silences, you can get locked down completely in a 3v3 situation as a caster. I think Bioware is aware of this, and they’re trying to both find the balanced amount for them and see if they can tweak the system, so melee won’t be in overlord mode against casters unless peeled.
  
  The casters in swtor do not have a mage’s novas/stuns, or amazing damage output from instacast dots. We should be able to get those casts off, otherwise we’ll feel like warlocks with rogues/warriors sitting on us 24/7. If they implemented the school-lock system from wow, casters would have to rely on peels, and seeing the gameplay of warzones, I can’t really say you will be able to get the same help from your teammates compared to a 3v3 arena situation.
- Mike
  
  Now THIS post has some valid points! Lets hope they fix some of the problems you bring up before launch!
  
  I’m not at all worried about the “lack of depth” originally mentioned though. In fact, it sounds great to me! I think WoW’s complex chain of counters and counters to counters (as exampled with the Warrior vs Mage) is BORING AS HELL! And for this reason, I mainly played low-level PvP when I played WoW. Level 29 BG’s provided much more fun gameplay IMO. And better class balance too.
  
  The fact I prefer less “depth” may of course be just because I’m one of those awful “baddies”, but good luck for me then to have a fresh MMO designed just for my Special Needs!
Theik

I must be crazy, when I want to PvP, I go to League of Legends or a first person shooter.
- Haitus
  
  This x1000. If you really claim to be a hardcore PvP gamer only, you probably wouldn’t play MMOs just for PvP. You’d learn that MMOs really don’t take that much skill, and 9/10 there more fun to play when you aren’t only focused on PvP.
Boo

Been beta testing for over a month now (on hiatus because of the new build update, grr!), and here are a few pros/cons I’ve encountered along the way in regards to the PvP system (duels notwithstanding):

Pros:

-PvP Gear! Covers every single equipment slot except for some tertiary weaponry (Vibroknives for Agents, for example), and sprawls entire sets out over every few levels to make a very competitive breadcrumb trail for players who’d prefer to spend the majority of their gameplay PvPing, rather than PvEing
(TL;DR You can PvP from 10-50 and obtain good gear the whole way through)

-Commendations! Gear continuously increases in price-per-item, however the current distribution of commendations appears to be just good enough to keep you participating even if you hit a losing streak. Best of all? THEY’RE CURRENTLY TRADABLE (but expect this to change by release)

-Teamwork Encouraged. With the high health pools on almost everything, and the roles of each AC accentuated due to prolonged combat, your best bet is to roll with other members of your team rather than Rambo’ing.
(TL;DR They’re doing well putting an emphasis on team play)

-Combat Entertainment. While with the huge HP system, you can see your downfall from a long ways off and realize you’re outclassed in a particular engagement, suffering through the inevitability of death, when things are evened up, you get more experience, your team is working well, etc., the experience is well worth the trek to get there if you’re an avid combat fan.
(TL;DR When it works, it’s fun)

-Experience/Cash. Yep, you generate both, and while it’s nothing compared to questing, it’s still feasible to -progress- in this way, most notably, as a substitute to all of the large amounts of sidemissions on each given planet.
(TL;DR Experience gain is moderate, Cash -could- be higher, but commendation gear more than makes up for it)

Cons:

-PvP Gear: Lacking some tertiary items, as I mentioned above (Agent’s Vibroknives, Power/Shield Generators) DROID ITEMS for your companions (YES, you can use all commendation gear for pets, but DROIDS are SOL as every piece of equipment aside from their ear piece (o_O), implant and weaponry are unique)

-(*)Healing.
(TL;DR – High PvP HP pools + endless resources + healers capable of respectable damage + premades = BAD MOJO, BRUDDAHS. PvP is still under heavy testing scrutiny, and this contingency needs to be addressed)

-Lack of battlegrounds.
(TL;DR Of the three current PvP battlegrounds we have, each is unique unto itself as far as objectives and pacing, however they will quickly wear PvP rats thin after a good few months of repetition)

-Battleground Scoreboard Issues.
(TL;DR No damage soak/avoidance/mitigation tally on end-game scoreboard for commendation rewards/medals)

-LAG.
(TL;DR Whacky lag issues with PvP currently, Alderaan being most troublesome.)

-Experience: no way to turn it off.
(TL;DR No EXP toggle for PvP battlegrounds. Solution: get over it)

Just a few nuggets from my time with PvP. Hope someone finds it useful. Apropos to the topic, I do think PvP needs a bit more flesh to the bone; could only help an already fantastic PvE game with some promising PvP -potential-.
- BigBob
  
  Thank you for giving some detail for once. Exactly what I was looking for. Also I appreciate your lack of any obvious bias in your post.
  - Boo
    
    If not for my desire to keep the post somewhat small, I wouldn’t have clipped the paragraphs I had for each of the points I presented, which include a little more information than could be added in a simple TL;DR line.
    
    You’re more than welcome, though. So long as informed gamers can wrap their heads around the term “beta” and “subject to change”, I personally don’t see the need to hamper everyone with an NDA and ignorance, just because some childish folk can’t handle testing phases. And honestly, despite the game having an unprecedented following, we don’t have a very high concentration of what I’d consider “adequate” testing material.
    
    Case and point, yes there was a bit of ruckus over the latest installment of the modification system over on the testing forums, but BioWare took a huge hit when implications of it were leaked to the public, which allowed them to see just how incredibly bad it’d be for them to consider said system.
    
    Just because some folks happen to have adequate rigs for BW’s focused testing does not make them any more qualified to offer feedback on the game’s core systems.
Dave

The PVP and Space Combat are rushed extras to fill in gaps within the game to appear more varied that other MMO’s, more time spent on important elements ensuring high quality would be a better focus for the developers.
NateDeezel

The whole game lacks depth lets be honest……if it wasnt for the story element (which wears off quickly either way) the game would a extremely bland and mediocre mmo….which is basically what it is.
- Sarko
  
  Yeah let’s be honest, very bland, mediocre, wears off – oh all that…. errrr, yeah right.
  
  From the environments, to the combat, to the pvp, to the story: TOR is awesome; I may have just played it for a weekend, but it was easily the best game I’ve ever played – can’t wait for more on 20th December!
getDown

The PvP in SWTOR is shallow. It’s also very basic. Low numbers in the poll or not, all I did during the last phase was PvP and it’s shallow. Also, skill counts for nearly nothing, it’s all about:

• Being the OP class (Sorcer: Madness for 1v1 dps, Healer for tank/heals… BH: Merc w/ arsenal for AoE dps)
• Having greater numbers (very difficult to win 1v2, impossible 1v3)
• Having better gear (stat buffs from gear far outweigh skill)
• Being higher level (beating someone 2 levels above you in open world PvP is difficult, 3-4 pretty much impossible unless they’ve had a lobotomy)
antracone

I’m pretty sure you’re confused about the meaning of ‘deep’.

And I sincerely hope you’re not maining a rogue or mage.
Guest

Talking about PVP balance from videos we’ve seen so far is pointless. The videos are all low-mid level PVP, it’s like looking at WoW pvp in the 20-40 bracket. There is absolutely no depth at all.

Wait till max level to voice your opinion so you actually have evidence that depth isn’t there.

Being the OP class (Sorcer: Madness for 1v1 dps, Healer for tank/heals… BH: Merc w/ arsenal for AoE dps)
• Having greater numbers (very difficult to win 1v2, impossible 1v3)
• Having better gear (stat buffs from gear far outweigh skill)
• Being higher level (beating someone 2 levels above you in open world PvP is difficult, 3-4 pretty much impossible unless they’ve had a lobotomy)

This is the most retarded list I’ve ever seen. Why should you win a 1v3 fight? Even if you’re Glad level in WoW, you won’t win a 1v3 unless they have down syndrome.

Every mmo is gear based. Especially WoW.

I don’t think people should even be talking about PVP balance. Half the people commenting on it are probably the same retards who complain about Blood DKs, Holy paladins being ‘unkillable’ and frost mages being ‘God mode’ , I’m actually praying those retards don’t come to swtor and complain about random shit that a guy with half a brain can handle.
http://twitter.com/Xbuster231 Justin

hes complaining silences only last 4 seconds, he wants more 20 second stuns and mezes to make him think hes actually good at pvp, i think these so called good pvpers dont know what a real pvp game is like SWTOR is because all they know is crappy stunlocking games like WoW and Rift
Oz

i would like to point out that most of these post assume that every thing they see know is the whole package they are getting on launch date from a company that has released features at a painstakingly slow pace to try to drive interest in a game thats stil 2 months from launch.Maybe before casting stones to the wind you should wait to see what the total package will be when we launch, also i would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play these games are bad at it. Look at WOW at least and im being very fair here 85 to 90% of the current subs are people who play their classes like a 5 year old. Basically what im trying to say is wait to you see what the fully fleshed out experience is going to be and stop judging a sneak peak into some of the features of an upcoming game and keep in mind most of the posters are simple bad players not willing to put in the time to learn the little secrects and tricks to their respective classes.
Oz

i would like to point out that most of these post assume that every thing they see know is the whole package they are getting on launch date from a company that has released features at a painstakingly slow pace to try to drive interest in a game thats stil 2 months from launch.Maybe before casting stones to the wind you should wait to see what the total package will be when we launch, also i would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play these games are bad at it. Look at WOW at least and im being very fair here 85 to 90% of the current subs are people who play their classes like a 5 year old. Basically what im trying to say is wait to you see what the fully fleshed out experience is going to be and stop judging a sneak peak into some of the features of an upcoming game and keep in mind most of the posters are simple bad players not willing to put in the time to learn the little secrects and tricks to their respective classes.
Oz

i would like to point out that most of these post assume that every thing they see know is the whole package they are getting on launch date from a company that has released features at a painstakingly slow pace to try to drive interest in a game thats stil 2 months from launch.Maybe before casting stones to the wind you should wait to see what the total package will be when we launch, also i would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play these games are bad at it. Look at WOW at least and im being very fair here 85 to 90% of the current subs are people who play their classes like a 5 year old. Basically what im trying to say is wait to you see what the fully fleshed out experience is going to be and stop judging a sneak peak into some of the features of an upcoming game and keep in mind most of the posters are simple bad players not willing to put in the time to learn the little secrects and tricks to their respective classes.
Oz

i would like to point out that most of these post assume that every thing they see know is the whole package they are getting on launch date from a company that has released features at a painstakingly slow pace to try to drive interest in a game thats stil 2 months from launch.Maybe before casting stones to the wind you should wait to see what the total package will be when we launch, also i would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play these games are bad at it. Look at WOW at least and im being very fair here 85 to 90% of the current subs are people who play their classes like a 5 year old. Basically what im trying to say is wait to you see what the fully fleshed out experience is going to be and stop judging a sneak peak into some of the features of an upcoming game and keep in mind most of the posters are simple bad players not willing to put in the time to learn the little secrects and tricks to their respective classes.
Oz

i would like to point out that most of these post assume that every thing they see know is the whole package they are getting on launch date from a company that has released features at a painstakingly slow pace to try to drive interest in a game thats stil 2 months from launch.Maybe before casting stones to the wind you should wait to see what the total package will be when we launch, also i would like to point out that the vast majority of the people who play these games are bad at it. Look at WOW at least and im being very fair here 85 to 90% of the current subs are people who play their classes like a 5 year old. Basically what im trying to say is wait to you see what the fully fleshed out experience is going to be and stop judging a sneak peak into some of the features of an upcoming game and keep in mind most of the posters are simple bad players not willing to put in the time to learn the little secrects and tricks to their respective classes.
with roses dawg

world pvp was the most fun i ever had in wow. ganking to bring out high lvl ppl in STV was great, just to see how many ppl you could get out there. or tanaris. SWTOR needs moar world pvp imo
PapaBash

Content is a linear function.

Basically what you are doing, when you say: “but wow has that much!” is, that
swtor => f(t)=a*(t-7) should be greater then wow => f(t)=a*t, which cannot happen unless BW had a way BIGGER staff. (a=staff)

It is simply a thing of workhours, which wow had years to input and swtor did not.Following that logic, WoW (if continually developed) will always be ahead. That would even hold true in 2020. The only advantages newly developed games inherit is, that they do not need to put workhours into failures and can go right with what they know will work and then go from there…

If “the market” demands more, then is realistically doable, then “the market” will rebound to WoW by their choice.

I played all the major MMO’s even before WoW hit the market and I remember too well how we players actually made the content regarding PvP. It was very scripted for every 1on1 encounter you had, given the enemy player knew how to play his class.

It will end up the same here, but the best part about is, that I get to enjoy it in a world I get to know or know partly already. I will be way more immersed then e.g. in Rift where I still don’t know why there are even rifts.

I hope this game will break my pace to rush through to the endgame. Already the question: Inquisitor or Marauder. I know by mechanic, that a marauder with a pocket healer will be kickass compared to the first, but the first spams unlimited power… awwww
Purpleclinton

The pvp lacks major depth completely. It was catered to casual gamers and removed any type of skill learning curve from it. It is almost completely a dps war due to the fact that there is only a stun or cc per class with minute cooldowns. Not to mention with the large number of aoe skills the cc is impossible to use in most PUG situations.

The skills also have huge delay after the cast is completed, or on instants like force wave where the Jedi leaps in the air before casting an instant cast spell. This makes it harder to time your long cooldown, life or death, skills. The pvp is horrible if you want any type of serious competitive play. It’s good for casual gamers who just want to see flashy lightsaber battles and that’s it.
- Purpleclinton
  
  Most competitive players canceled their preorders after the weekend stress test.
Haivo128

As long as I can tell the difference from the bad pvpers and good pvpers in this game IDC.

Star Wars : The Old Republic : PvP Lacks Depth(?) [Updated]

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